Pastors, Shepherds, & Leadership in the Church

On this episode of The CBMW Podcast, Jon, Denny, and Colin discuss whether “pastor” in the Bible is an office, gift, or function, and how it relates to shepherds.

[Music]
0:05
Greetings and welcome to the CBMW
0:08
podcast. My name is Jonathan Swan. I am
0:10
the executive editor of ICON, a journal
0:12
for biblical anthropology. I am joined
0:14
on the podcast by the president of CBMW,
0:17
Denny Burke, and the executive director
0:19
of CBMW, Colin Smothers.
0:22
Colin, I hope you’re settling well there
0:25
in Kansas.
0:27
You know, I’ve got my bookshelves hung,
0:29
John. And that is uh halfway to
0:31
settling. And so I’m I’m happy to be
0:33
here.
0:34
Is John Wayne in the house with you or
0:35
the office with you?
0:37
He’s in the basement, so he didn’t make
0:39
it quite into my
0:40
All right.
0:40
Uh my home office, but we’ll see. We’ll
0:42
see. I’ve still got some wall space.
0:44
Denny, you’re settling back in uh to
0:47
your academic responsibilities.
0:50
Well, you know, I’ve had a long
0:52
sbatical. I haven’t taught a class and
0:54
since last November and so my sbatical
0:57
just ended and this week I started
0:59
teaching again and I’m glad to be back
1:01
and glad to see students and Boyce
1:03
College is a wonderful place to be.
1:05
Absolutely. Well, we are glad to have
1:07
the band back together. Hey, today we’re
1:10
going to discuss whether or not there is
1:12
an office of shepherd that is distinct
1:15
from the office of pastor and whether
1:17
the word pastor refers to an office or a
1:22
gift. Uh but to get us started, Denny,
1:24
why are we having this discussion today?
1:27
Well, this came on our radar in the last
1:29
week or so because there’s a Southern
1:31
Baptist church in Texas, uh, a church
1:34
called Fielder Church in Arlington,
1:37
Texas, that holds the position that
1:40
women can be pastors, but they believe
1:43
that a pastor is a gift, not an office.
1:49
And it’s very interesting because uh
1:51
it’s been caused some controversy in the
1:53
Texas Baptist Convention. they’ve come
1:55
before their credentials committee. The
1:57
credentials committee has looked at it
1:59
and um we’ll we’ll see how all that ends
2:02
up um in in the future. I don’t want to
2:04
make any pronouncements on that, but I
2:06
do think it’s worth thinking about the
2:08
rationale that this church is using in
2:11
terms of what they believe about pastor.
2:13
And so what they point to is Ephesians
2:15
chapter 4 in verse 15, which I’m turning
2:19
to right now, which says this.
2:24
It says, “And God gave some as apostles
2:27
and some as prophets and some as
2:29
evangelists and some as pastors and
2:30
teachers for the equipping of the saints
2:33
for the work of service to the building
2:35
up of the body of Christ.” And so if you
2:37
listen to the pastor, his name’s Jason
2:38
Parades. He released a a long video
2:41
where he explains their position and he
2:43
argues that all of those uh titles
2:47
listed there, apostles, prophets,
2:49
evangelists, pastors, teachers, those
2:51
are gifts. And um and so pastor the
2:55
being a part of that list that’s a gift.
2:57
It’s not an office of of the church. And
3:00
so anybody can have the gifting of
3:03
pastor in that sense. And so therefore
3:06
uh women can be pastors. And in their
3:09
point of view they think that that it’s
3:11
a complimentarian position because
3:14
um complimentarian they they still
3:16
reserve the office of elder for men as
3:20
qualified by scripture. And so the the
3:22
ruling um function within the church is
3:26
still limited to men, but this pastor
3:28
gift they’re arguing is open to women
3:31
because it’s a gift and it’s not an
3:32
office. Um when we think about offices,
3:34
what we’re talking about is an office is
3:37
a role that you give to somebody and
3:39
that’s you know an officially sanctioned
3:42
role that you give to somebody to fill
3:44
and to carry out. That’s what an office
3:46
is. And so, you know, I hold the office
3:49
of father, for example, and, you know,
3:52
I’m officially sanctioned to to raise my
3:54
kids in that in that office. Um, you
3:57
have more formal, you know, offices that
3:59
are held in in in companies and in
4:01
businesses and in government. There’s a
4:03
president of the United States. He holds
4:04
an office. He’s been, you know,
4:06
officially appointed appointed to carry
4:08
out a certain set of functions and and
4:10
roles. So, that’s that’s what an office
4:13
is. And a person who has an office has
4:15
authority to operate in that role. And
4:17
when it comes to the the leadership
4:19
office of the church um there there’s a
4:22
a role a responsibility to lead the
4:25
entire congregation and to teach the
4:27
entire congregation. But this church is
4:29
arguing fielder church argues that
4:32
actually pastor is not an office. It’s
4:35
not an authoritative role within the
4:37
church. It’s just a gifting and
4:39
therefore anybody can have that and
4:40
therefore women can be pastors.
4:43
Well, one more detail to add to that,
4:45
Denny, is at least recently as this
4:48
controversy is unfolding, as the
4:50
Southern Baptist Convention is trying to
4:52
determine, you know, what does closely
4:54
identified look like in order to
4:56
cooperate with, you know, the Baptist
4:58
faith and message and the various
4:59
practices and um norms across the
5:02
convention regarding church offices.
5:05
uh Fielder Church actually updated their
5:09
entire staff listing to uh to give every
5:13
person on staff at least in this
5:15
particular role even so even it looks
5:19
like Jason Prades he’s the the lead
5:20
pastor or the lead elder they gave all
5:24
of them even the women the the um title
5:28
of shepherd so instead of making this
5:32
controversy or or making this about you
5:35
what is and what isn’t a pastor. There’s
5:38
even another layer uh where they’ve
5:40
added this word they’ve injected this
5:42
word shepherd into it and it seems like
5:44
they did that in order to avoid
5:47
accountability to the Baptist faith and
5:49
message which explicitly names pastor.
5:52
So Denny, can you talk about that? Like
5:54
what what is the this kind of switcheroo
5:56
that happened over the last month?
5:58
Yeah, I mean so you know we’re sitting
6:00
in the chief seats. We’re just watching,
6:01
you know, the changes on their website,
6:03
but it’s been noted for a long time cuz
6:06
uh for at least 2 years, people have
6:09
known about this church. They’ve been on
6:10
the radar cuz the pastor was so public
6:12
in defending having both men and women
6:15
as pastors at their church. And it’s on
6:18
their website. You can see all the ones
6:20
that are that are listed there. But
6:22
because so many eyebrows were raised
6:23
across the convention, um there was this
6:27
ostensible conflict between what they
6:29
were doing and what our confessional
6:31
statement says. Our confessional
6:32
statement says the office of pastor,
6:34
elder, overseer is limited to men as
6:37
qualified by scripture. And so if you’ve
6:39
got, you know, women listed there, that
6:41
that would seem to be in conflict with
6:43
that. And so, um,
6:47
I don’t know a week or so ago, we
6:50
somebody sent to me, um, a link to their
6:52
website and they had changed not just
6:55
the women’s titles, but the men’s titles
6:57
who had pastor to shepherd. And so, it
7:00
looks like it was a way to avoid, you
7:02
know, the conflict with our doctrinal
7:04
statement just by changing the
7:06
nomenclature. And so, what what I was
7:08
hoping we could talk about today is is
7:09
to understand, okay, well, what does the
7:11
Bible say about these names? Um I is it
7:15
appropriate to speak of women as pastors
7:17
and shepherds if even if you’re just
7:19
transforming it into a gift? And um I’m
7:22
going to argue no. And so that’s what I
7:24
was hoping that we could talk about
7:26
today.
7:27
Yeah, absolutely. Uh Denny, you had
7:31
referenced in your article another
7:33
article by Mark Mentor from the Center
7:35
for uh Baptist Leadership and he served
7:38
on that credentials committee that that
7:39
recently uh discussed this church. It
7:42
was his uh retelling that suggested it
7:46
was in response to them being brought
7:48
before the credentials committee that
7:49
they did shift from yeah
7:52
uh the title pastor to to now shepherd.
7:55
So let’s just say that they do this then
7:58
uh everyone’s a shepherd now.
8:01
Why and maybe this is this will get us
8:02
into the conversation. Why why would
8:05
that be an unbiblical move to just say
8:08
uh we have e either they’re a gift or
8:10
they’re a distinct office
8:13
uh a shepherd? Is this is this a
8:14
biblical move or is this a novel uh
8:17
unbiblical uh decision?
8:19
Yeah, it it would be an unbiblical move
8:21
because it it misunderstands first of
8:24
all the nature of the offices of the
8:25
church and then it misunderstands the
8:28
nature of what a a pastor is and what a
8:31
what a shepherd is. So, uh, biblically
8:34
speaking, uh, there there’s one Greek
8:36
word that is at issue here, and it’s
8:39
this word poain. It only appears one
8:41
time in the New Testament. It’s the text
8:43
I just read a little bit ago, Ephesians
8:46
4:15. It’s typically rendered in our
8:48
Bibles as pastor. Okay, poign mean.
8:51
That’s how it it’s it’s rendered. But
8:54
it’s it’s a term that just means
8:55
shepherd. And so if you look in, you
8:58
know, Luke chapter 2, you’re going to
8:59
see the word poign where the shepherds
9:01
were out there uh guarding their flocks
9:04
by night and then this, you know, great
9:06
star appears and there’s an announcement
9:08
from an angel. Well, those are
9:09
shepherds. Those are poes out there.
9:11
They’re they’re people who tend sheep.
9:13
Okay. So, uh but what what happens is is
9:16
that in Latin, I think it was in Latin
9:18
and then through French, um we had this
9:21
other word that came into English that
9:23
also meant shepherd and that was this
9:24
word pastor. Okay, so pastor and
9:27
shepherd are two English words that are
9:30
really just rendering that original idea
9:32
of shepherd. Okay, and so those are two
9:34
faithful ways to render it in English.
9:36
They’re of course now theologically
9:38
loaded for us, but they’re both
9:40
referring to the same thing. So if you
9:42
switch your name from pastor to
9:44
shepherd, you actually haven’t changed
9:46
anything. You’ve changed some letters,
9:48
but biblically you’re still pointing to
9:50
the shepherd uh function. And and the
9:54
shepherd function is really key in
9:56
scripture and it’s not a small point
9:58
because you know what is a a shepherd’s
10:01
responsibility. Well, a literal shepherd
10:03
is somebody one who tends sheep. But
10:06
then the New Testament will speak of
10:08
shephering not in terms of a literal
10:10
shepherd but someone who tends God’s
10:11
flock which the church. Okay. And so
10:14
that’s how the term shepherd comes over
10:16
to refer to an office within the church.
10:19
And there’s a a deep um rootage of this
10:22
concept in the Old Testament all the way
10:24
into the New. So you we everybody knows
10:28
Psalm 23. The Lord is my shepherd. I
10:32
shall not want. He leads me by still
10:34
waters. Um his rod and his staff, they
10:38
comfort me. So what do you have there in
10:40
Psalm 23 in terms of what God does as a
10:42
shepherd for his people? He leads his
10:44
people. He protects his people. and he
10:48
provides for his people. Now, how many
10:51
of God’s people does he lead and protect
10:53
and provide? Does he do it do it just
10:55
for the men?
10:58
Does he lead, protect, and provide for
11:00
the just the women or the children? No.
11:03
The shepherd’s responsibility is to lead
11:06
and to protect, and to provide for the
11:08
entire flock. And so by the time you get
11:11
to the New Testament and you see Jesus
11:12
talking about the fact that he is the
11:15
good shepherd and his sheep know him and
11:18
they recognize his voice and they come
11:21
to the shepherd because they won’t
11:22
listen to another. They know the voice
11:24
of their own shepherd. And then you see
11:26
Jesus speaking in parables talking about
11:28
what happens if the one sheep wanders
11:32
off. What does the shepherd do? He goes
11:35
and he finds the one sheep because he
11:37
has a responsibility to lead and to
11:39
protect and to provide every single
11:42
sheep in that flock. And so the
11:45
shephering responsibility involves
11:46
leadership, protection, and provision
11:49
for the entire flock, not for pieces of
11:51
the flock. So when you get to the New
11:54
Testament and you’ve got this one office
11:55
of the church, which by the way, there’s
11:57
three different terms terms to refer to
11:59
this one office. You have elder, you
12:01
have overseer, and then you have
12:03
shepherd or the other rendering is is
12:05
pastor. So when you come to the New
12:07
Testament, what’s a pastor’s
12:09
responsibility? He’s supposed to lead.
12:12
He’s supposed to provide and to protect
12:14
the flock. Does he do that for some of
12:16
the flock? No, he does that for all of
12:18
the flock. And so what what’s happening
12:21
with these churches where they’re
12:22
appointing women to be pastors and
12:24
shepherds and then saying, “Well, it’s
12:26
just a gifting. It’s not an office.”
12:29
Well, even as a gifting, you’re
12:30
misunderstanding what a shepherd’s
12:32
responsibility is. If you’re appointing
12:35
women to do this, they’ll say, “Well, we
12:36
don’t have them in a ruling function or
12:38
they’re not leading or preaching men.”
12:41
It’s still inappropriate to title them
12:44
pastor or shepherd. Because a pastor or
12:46
shepherd biblically has a responsibility
12:48
over the entire flock, not over pieces
12:51
of the flock. So, you know, I I’m an
12:54
associate pastor at our church, which is
12:56
the same thing as an associate shepherd,
12:59
but I have to give an account for the
13:00
entire flock and both of you as pastors,
13:03
even though you may have some specific
13:05
responsibilities
13:06
uh in your the the roles that you’re in.
13:08
Jonathan, you’re in an associate and um
13:11
Collins in in a senior role. It doesn’t
13:14
matter if you have the title of pastor,
13:17
your responsibility is to lead and to
13:19
protect and to provide the entire flock.
13:21
At least that’s what shepherd means in
13:23
the New Testament. And so what the the
13:25
problem with churches that are
13:27
appointing women as pastors or shepherds
13:29
is that they are not called to lead and
13:34
to lead and to teach the entire flock
13:36
like that. Um that that is a a role
13:38
that’s specifically designated for men
13:40
who are qualified by scripture to do
13:42
that. And so it’s not just a gifting.
13:44
But even if it were just a gifting, the
13:46
gifting would mean you’re supposed to be
13:48
taking care of the entire flock, not
13:50
pieces of it. You would be a very
13:52
unfaithful shepherd if you weren’t
13:53
responsible for the entire flock. You
13:55
have to hold you have to be caring for
13:57
all of it. And that’s not what that’s
13:59
not what’s going on here. So it’s kind
14:01
of a these are church the the people at
14:04
this church are brothers and sisters in
14:05
Christ. Okay? So this is like an
14:07
intramural conversation amongst
14:09
Christians about the right way to think
14:10
of the offices of the church. and the
14:13
most healthy way to be faithful to
14:15
scripture as we’re doing our ministries.
14:17
And I I think this is a an an error that
14:20
doesn’t promote the health of the church
14:22
and it’s kind of confused about
14:24
confusing about the offices and confus
14:26
it confuses what’s actually a shepherd
14:29
is actually responsible for. Yeah.
14:32
Denny, a few years ago, well actually
14:33
over a decade now ago, you were teaching
14:35
in Sunday school at Kwood Baptist Church
14:38
and you were talking about these three
14:39
different words that are used for the
14:40
one office. you know, pastor, elder,
14:43
overseer. We are going through the
14:45
different passages that uh refer to this
14:47
one office with these different terms
14:49
and the ways that they, you know, and
14:51
some of these passages use these terms
14:53
interchangeably. And then um you know,
14:56
but all in reference to this to this one
14:58
uh leadership office in the church. And
15:01
out of that, I produced this diagram uh
15:03
that some people are familiar with.
15:05
Maybe we’ll put a link in the in the
15:07
podcast to it. But I in that um in those
15:10
passages, there’s two in particular
15:12
where you see uh the function of
15:15
pastoring being assigned directly to
15:18
this office specifically. Uh and the
15:21
ones I want to highlight are Acts 20
15:22
where Paul is talking to the Ephesian
15:24
elders and then 1 Peter 5. And I think
15:27
honestly 1 Peter 5 is is the clearest
15:29
example of this um of this idea of
15:32
pastoring being a a function of the
15:35
elder/overseer.
15:37
And those three words oversee uh or
15:40
overseer, elder, and um and pastor or
15:43
shepherd are used by Peter to describe
15:47
the function of this one leadership
15:49
office. So I’ll read that real quick and
15:51
and and make some notes. 1 Peter 5 in
15:53
one in verse one says, “So I exhort the
15:56
elders among you.” So he’s talking to
15:58
the elders,
16:00
uh you know, the the one of two offices,
16:02
biblical offices in the church, elder
16:04
and deacon. I exhort the elders among
16:07
you as a fellow elder and witness of the
16:09
sufferings of Christ as well as a
16:11
partaker in the glory of that is going
16:13
to be revealed shepherd the flock. So
16:16
who is he exhorting to do this function
16:20
of shephering pastoring? It’s the
16:22
elders. And then right after that he
16:24
tells them to exercise oversight. That’s
16:26
the verbal form of uh of the noun
16:30
overseer. So right there you have the
16:32
elders being commanded by Peter to
16:35
shepherd and ex exercise oversight. And
16:38
then further on he says that you need to
16:41
do this uh as an undersheperd under the
16:45
great chief shepherd that is Christ
16:47
himself. And so you mentioned earlier
16:50
that the Greek word underlying you know
16:52
shepherd or pastor is poign. Well, that
16:56
does appear one time in Ephesians 4 to I
16:58
think refer to this office. But the verb
17:01
poino uh appears several different
17:03
places.
17:04
That’s right.
17:05
That to to describe this function, the
17:07
shephering function, which is a whole
17:08
flock function, not just directed, you
17:11
know, at one part of the flock and also
17:13
clearly given right here by Peter in fe
17:16
in 1 Peter 5 and by Paul in in Acts 20
17:19
to the elders. This function is given to
17:22
the elders. And so when you give when
17:24
you talk about you know women having the
17:26
gift of shephering or the gift of
17:28
pastoring I think that flies in the face
17:30
of the plain meaning of what Peter is
17:32
saying is given here in 1 Peter 5 to the
17:36
office of elder to the elders of that
17:38
church.
17:39
And I think that you know for a lot of
17:41
folks I think there’s just been some
17:42
concept creep on what shepherd/pastor
17:46
is what that means. I think for a lot of
17:49
folks when they say, um, okay, this
17:52
woman over here, she’s got a really good
17:54
shephering attitude or a good shephering
17:56
gift, I think what they mean is is that
17:58
she’s good at making disciples.
18:01
Um, maybe leading other women to faith
18:04
and then helping them to grow in the
18:06
faith, um, discipling them. And so what
18:09
what I think has happened for a lot of
18:10
people is they’re confusing the ordinary
18:13
work of the great commission, which is
18:14
to make disciples of Jesus, with
18:16
shephering. Okay? All of God’s people
18:19
are called to make disciples. And all of
18:23
God’s people are going to be called to
18:24
bring people to faith, to call them to
18:26
repentance, to believe, to help them to
18:28
grow in the faith, teach them the Bible.
18:30
I mean, all all believers are going to
18:32
be called to that. But that would be the
18:34
work of disciplehip. The work of
18:36
shephering includes disciplehip, but it
18:40
also includes these tasks of overseeing
18:43
and of leading and of teaching the
18:46
entire flock. So there’s authority
18:48
involved with it in a way that’s not
18:50
there for just, you know, every member
18:52
of the church that’s doing the great
18:53
commission. And so that’s the difference
18:55
here. And so there’s concept creep where
18:58
a lot of times people will think, well,
18:59
that’s a shephering function. And
19:02
they’ll confuse that with, you know,
19:04
disciplehip, just ordinary disciplehip.
19:06
And that’s where I think, you know, if
19:08
we’re going to be reading the Bible
19:09
correctly, we have to take the
19:10
categories in scripture as they’re pres
19:13
presented to us. Shepherds lead and
19:15
protect and provide and they do that for
19:18
the entire flock and they have to be
19:21
appointed to that office and recognized
19:23
in that office by the congregation.
19:25
We’re Baptist so in a congregational
19:27
context it’s a congregation that does
19:28
that. But whatever your church
19:31
tradition, whether you’re Anglican or
19:33
Presbyterian or whatever other
19:35
Protestant denomination, there’s going
19:37
to be some ecclesial authority that puts
19:39
you in and recognizes you in that
19:41
office. And then you’re in that office.
19:43
And then the church looks to you to
19:45
exercise authority in that way. Um, but
19:47
that gets all confused when you start
19:49
speaking of of pastoring and shephering
19:52
as a gift and not an office.
19:54
Absolutely.
19:56
There are some out there who will maybe
19:58
be thinking of Paul’s admonition to
20:00
Timothy. Don’t quarrel about words and
20:03
and and maybe they’ll think, “Hey, there
20:06
are such bigger issues. We need to stick
20:09
together for the purpose of
20:10
cooperation.” What would you tell that
20:13
Christian, that Southern Baptist or
20:15
Texas Southern Baptist with regard to
20:18
this issue? Why why does it matter in
20:20
the church? Why are we uh going into
20:22
detail about this?
20:24
Yeah. I mean, I think this is a bigger
20:25
issue. Not it’s not just Texas, it’s in
20:27
our whole denomination.
20:29
Every generation has to decide what kind
20:31
of
20:33
um what kind of effort we want to pursue
20:36
together for missions and for
20:38
theological education. The main things
20:40
that we do at Southern Baptist together
20:42
is that we we pull our assets in order
20:45
to fund missions around the world and at
20:48
home and then also theological
20:49
education. Those are the main we do some
20:51
other things but those are the main
20:52
things we’re doing and we have a
20:55
doctrinal basis to cooperate together in
20:57
that work and it’s called the Baptist
20:59
faith and message. If we don’t all keep
21:01
to that doctrinal basis, if we can’t
21:03
count on that as our doctrinal uh
21:05
presupposition for the ministries that
21:07
we’re doing, then people are going to
21:09
spin off the people who, in other words,
21:12
people aren’t going to give to that
21:13
effort if they can’t count on that. This
21:15
is the kind of effort that um you know
21:18
is consistent with what we believe as a
21:20
church. So um that’s why I think it’s
21:23
it’s really important. Here’s the thing.
21:25
It’s not what we’re talking about here
21:27
with this church. It’s not about whether
21:28
or not they’re Christian or not. Um,
21:30
it’s about whether or not we’re going to
21:32
have enough unity on these secondary
21:33
issues to remain cooperating together
21:36
for the purposes of the great
21:37
commission. I have dear sweet friends
21:39
who are Presbyterians
21:41
and um there’s our our differences with
21:43
them are significant enough that it
21:45
makes it difficult for us to partner
21:47
together for church planning and
21:48
missions, right? I mean, it’s pretty
21:50
significant. I recognize that they’re
21:52
Christians, but we’re we’re we’re doing
21:53
separate efforts because of that. If you
21:55
get to the point within your
21:56
denomination that you can’t agree on who
21:58
the pastors are, that’s a significant
22:00
enough difference that it can limit your
22:03
ability to cooperate together. So that’s
22:05
why you want to maintain unity on this
22:07
and you don’t want it to let it to
22:08
become an issue that fractures your
22:10
coalition because it is important I
22:12
think that we stay together and that we
22:14
we try to cooperate together for the
22:16
purpose of evangelism and missions.
22:18
That’s what I want too. Um, but the only
22:21
way that can happen is if we have a, you
22:23
know, a certain amount of doctrinal
22:25
unity as we move forward together in
22:27
that.
22:28
And John, I would just add one more
22:29
thing to that. I think there’s a maybe
22:31
an underlying hermeneutical and even
22:33
epistemological issue here where we’re
22:36
talking about just what what do words
22:37
mean and what is the the plain sense of
22:39
of words. I mean, I don’t think the
22:41
Baptist faith and message could be any
22:43
clearer that it says there are two
22:45
offices and it names one of those
22:47
offices as pastor, elder, overseer. So
22:50
there’s some intellectual honesty here
22:51
required just to say that well I’m just
22:53
disagreeing here with that uh or I’m
22:56
affirming that with my my practice and
22:58
my in my faith in my local church. And
23:00
that also applies to the plain meaning
23:02
of of scripture. And I think we want to
23:04
stay close to the text. We want to
23:06
describe the way that we’re doing church
23:08
close to the text close to how the New
23:10
Testament uh has ordered the church
23:12
according to Christ’s precepts and
23:14
commands. And uh you know we don’t want
23:17
to play fast and loose with words. We
23:19
want to be plain. We want to be plain
23:21
spoken. We want to be understood clearly
23:23
and we don’t want to confuse our flocks.
23:25
We don’t want to confuse the people. So
23:27
my admonition would be just let’s let
23:30
words mean what they mean and be clear
23:32
and honest about those things and uh and
23:35
at the end of the day order our churches
23:38
and our lives according to God’s word.
23:40
That’s a great way to end it. It’s good
23:41
to be back with you, Colin and Denny.
23:44
Until next time, you can visit CBMW to
23:47
find out more about biblical resources
23:49
on the family, gender, and sexuality.